What are your feelings on Mockingbird being the Avenger who was chosen to die in this issue? Does the fact that she was the love interest of a more popular male character factor into your views? Should they have picked someone else?

• Butch Syyap, Philippines
  
  My feelings of Bobbi having died this issue? It was a waste. The death should not have happened.

  Did the fact that she was a love interest of a more famous Avenger have anything to do with my feelings? Yes and no.

  Yes, because in this world of heroes reflecting the way people separate and just let marriages fail – I would hope that there would be more examples of marriages that do succeed. Peter and MJ, Reed and Sue – they stack up against failed the marriages of Pietro and Crystal, Wanda and Vision, Jan and Hank; and fairly recently Scott and Jean – plus there are the failed relationships of Steve with Bernie or Steve and Sharon, Tony with Bethany, Peter and Gwen.

  There are too many examples of failed relationships and not seemingly enough successful ones. Think about it… heroes can find it within themselves to persevere against all odds in world or life threatening situations… yet they can’t seem to solve relationship issues?

  Yes, because Clint and Bobbi deserved better in life – we know that Clint may have been one of those hard-luck Avengers, and he definitely was an impulsive one. Bobbi helped him by being a calming effect – she could be his conscience, in a mocking bird kind of way, and Clint knew this. He would be wild, and she could match this… he could brag, and she could remind him of his fallibilities, he was a great fighter – so was she. She helped him, and yes – as shown even unto the end, protected him from harm’s way I’m sure he’d reciprocate – but Bobbi, I guess, could assess things better and thus react to save him more often than him saving her.

  No, because I would want any hero… any character for that matter, to have a significant end. A death worthy of the story – one with build-up, meaning and impact. Case in point, Kraven’s last Hunt was great and evenif it ended with his death, I found Kraven a better – well rounded villain afterwards, so his death achieved something.

  Bobbi’s death had no real build-up, it was incidental to the story. It had some worth – since she was protecting Clint. As for its impact? Well, this is a trickier question, since impact can be felt in the issue itself – or possible in its aftermath. Impact in the issue was present but rather shallow, and impact as an aftermath was hardly felt in successive stories with Clint (in the long term) and the Avengers. If there were any, it seemed to have happened off-panel.

  A hero’s death should account for something – not just be a plot device or a seemingly incidental conclusion. Maybe it was the art – maybe the pacing, but when Mephisto asked Clint if he was willing to help, and in so doing, ensure the safety of Bobbi – the art showed concern, the dialogue between the two was present, but the rendition lacked ‘oomph’. Hardly any reader rapport.

  Bean in mind that I just read this story - so I don't know if the long pre-knowledge of her death being a forgone conclusion may have affected me. But The Swordsman's death felt more dramatic... even if it was similar (happening in the near end of the adventure), and maybe that was another thing... it was a 'been there, done that' formula as far as Avengers were concerned.

• Greg Orzech, United States
  I'm going to have to disagree with the Conqueror for once. I can totally see where Roy was going with this, and as the question implies, I think Mockingbird's death was meant to be a major development in the life of Hawkeye. The problem was Avengers West Coast ended a couple of issues later and we never really got to feel the impact of her death the way that we were meant to, and Hawkeye never really got the full measure of character growth that Roy intended. Though Mockingbird wasn't at all my least favorite Avenger, I always thought she could have been more, e.g. a Black Widow/Elektra type, so I thought her death was well chosen since it impacted Hawk so much and she had been with the team for some time. I think it would have been remembered much more profoundly if Roy had been able to develop Clint, Wanda, and the team's handling of her death in the years afterwards. (Maybe why we got the first back story?)

  I did think the incidentality of Mock's death was actually very profound. How many times have the Avengers avoided, cheated, and outright defied death? But I would have like to have seen a longer death-scene, where we would get to see that Wanda really is struggling and won't make it back until Bobbi rescues her, and Clint. But I don't think the circumstances of her death warranted a multi-issue buildup. I think the intensity of the situation, battling for their lives vs. Mephisto and Satannish, gave Bobbi's death the impact it needed. I would say it was among the better deaths I've seen in comics and in the Avengers, and could have been among the best if Avengers West Coast had continued for a few more years.

• Larry Turner, Philippines
  When the issue first came out I was not happy with the choice. As the years have worn on I think the death of Mockingbird has served as huge factor in forming the character of Hawkeye. He lost and he lost big time.
  
  In regards to the character herself, I was not a huge fan. She seemed to be very underdeveloped and did in fact serve as a subplot for Hawkeye, more times than not. It was almost like a friends wife that you don't care too much for. I think the death of Mockingbird was a key part of the story. I think it was neccesary, and was in fact one of my favorite runs on WCA.
  
  I think the fact that Hawkeye bounced back and still kept "slinging arrows" was not the intentional effect of the plot device but a great though unintended by-product. If there had been a 1-900 number I would have voted for death.
  
  
• Philip Tite, United Kingdom
  Some of what I wrote in answer 2 covers this question as well. So let me focus a bit on the relationship of Bobbi and Hawk. Who should have died? (Assuming someone had to die in this story.)

  We could chose this character based on 'who we like and don't like'. That's the easiest of all ways to do it -- As a reader, we would likely select the character we don't like, or see as disposable (as per my typology in answer two). For me this would have been US Agent. I'm not a big fan and I think that where the character went in Force Works and during the volume 3 era was not well developed or useful. Like I said, I don't like the character. For the writer and marketing people behind the comics, however, a more popular character has greater punch – kill off Thor and everyone will talk about it for the next twelve months or more; kill of D-Man and people may yawn. With Thor, we sell more comics, and ideally more of the comic where he reappears! With D-Man, you can have a good story, but not risk losing readers or having to go through red tap with editorial powers that be over getting rid of a big name with vested interest in several titles. (Imagine killing off Spider-Man.)

  We could also chose the character based on the need of the story and future stories. This is where the Bobbi-Clint relationship comes into play. Kill off US Agent and you have a great story, but there’s a lack of other characters on which this death would matter at least in the long term. Kill off Wanda, and you impact Quicksilver, Hawkeye, Captain America, Magneto, Crystal, the Vision, and Wonder Man.

  So why kill off Bobbi? Likely the relationship was the main reason. (It’s also possible that Roy Thomas felt she was disposable, but I doubt it.) This relationship, which had only recently been re-established within the series, offers an emotional power to the event. We feel with Hawkeye as he holds his dying wife. This is not a hero dying nobly, or at least not only a noble death. She is more than an Avenger – she’s Bobbi. She’s Clint’s love, his life. We’ve watched this develop through various narrative twists and rough roads and high points through one hundred comics, a four-issue WCA mini-series, several annuals (both west and east coast varieties), and occasionally in the original series.

  This last point is important, I think, for rendering Mockingbird a candidate for ‘profound death’: she and Clint have been integral to the series since her very first appearance in an Avengers comic. The two started this team, founding it as ‘couple’ activity almost. Is it a coincidence that the series also ends shortly after her death? It’s almost as if issues 101 and 102 are simply closing up chapters to a series that really ended with issue 100. Could we say that WCA/AWC is really a series about Clint and Bobbi? Perhaps. Yes, there is much else that occurred in those many issues, but I doubt that anyone would deny that these two characters have always been central in the identity of this series and team.

  Still, with that impact possibility, I do think that the writers and editors missed a chance here to truly bring this series to a profound closure with a ‘profound death’. It’s already been mentioned in the responses of others, to which I fully agree: there was not enough time to really feel this death and to allow it to fully impact the other characters, especially Hawkeye. In a sense, it would have been better to have made this ’64 page anniversary blockbuster’ only focus on the death of this character, allowing the funeral and the impact of this event to be fully fleshed out and thereby leading to the closure of the team. That would have made more sense than have Captain America simply shut it down in issue 102 on what is really a forced rationale. If the impact of this had been carried out within the main Avengers title, Force Works, or even a solo series for Hawkeye, then perhaps we would have had a ‘profound death’.

  Though does this make her a profound character? I’m not sure. Her value, it seems, both in life and in death (and even in afterlife) is dependent upon her husband. Does this merely make her no more significant than, for example, Thor’s hammer without Thor or Bucky without Cap or Redwing without Falcon? Is her death potentially significant on it’s own merits (such as with Wonder Man or Nighthawk) or is it only significant because of the impact on Hawkeye? If the latter, then perhaps she was only ever a support character for the avenging archer.

Heroes and heroines have died in various ways over the years. How does the way in which Mockingbird was killed, and its aftermath, stack up?

• Butch Syyap, Philippines
  Man… this was a tough question.

  A hero’s (or heroine’s ) death – if it has to be done, hopefully adds drama and meaning to the story, and I have to remember how it affected me as a reader and fan and how it affected other characters as well.

  Looking at it from this perspective, I try to remember the deaths that came and went and one death in particular – one that I know I was shocked and wondering out loud why it had to happen was Jean Grey/Phoenix. Bear in mind that this was coming from a series of very interesting stories by Claremont and Byrne and Phoenix was a fan favorite. I was saddened by the news of her death, and upon reading the way she died (issue #137) I shed tears.

  Phoenix’s death afected the team - as it paved the way for Cyclops leaving, and the New X-men having to run things by themselves, plus it allowed some poignant thoughts by Nightcrawler as he saw the Canadian sunset (issue #139) and upon reading this, I shed tears again.

  Phoenix death came like a thief – it was unexpected, and it affected a strong fan favorite… it also diminished the number of original X-men by one (maybe many Beatles fans can relate upon hearing Lennon's death).

  I, of course, try not to think about all those resurrections at latter times. Truly, the Phoenix death, first time around – was great. Yeah, I may have cursed Marvel back then, but I still find the tale of love and courage going against a great many obstacles poignant, even if it could not conquer everything… and of Jean’s self-sacrifice at the end to be truly heroic and noble.

  Another great death was that of Mar-vell… Now here was a graphic novel that you knew the ending to - yet upon reading it, I found the whole story of how all the heroes gathered to honor, try and help, but fail in finding a cure to Mar-vell’s cancer another emotional and realistic story… one that forcibly reminds us of our mortality, no matter how cosmic one’s life had been.

  Mar-vell’s courage until his last breath, was well depicted – and even if there was hardly any battle in this graphic novel, the story was a landmark… plus a well deserved send-off to a well established character.

  One other sudden death, equally heroic, yet mildly sorrowful was Adam Warlock – I guess, his being a less established character made his death no less shocking – as its delivery was well presented. Yet his capability to avenge himself and others, before finally finding peace was a great close to his struggling life.

  What made me think of these three deaths in particular? The story's build up and pacing could not be flawed - even Adam Warlock's death, in a sort of retractive way via TWIO annual #2 (remember, he died earlier at the hands of Thanos, only to return at the end of the MTIO annual).

  Then again, there’s the useless death of Vindicator/Guardian of Alpha Flight – a death the team (and title) seemingly never recovered from.

  Bobbi died saving Clint – this too was sad and somewhat poetic, as she always seemed to keep him out of trouble. My first reaction was, why kill her? What purpose does/did it serve? I still have yet to find an answer for this - thus, I find her death a waste. Let me expound…

  I don’t think Bobbi’s death helped Clint in any way – nor did it help the Avengers either… I mean, it could have been just a random street punk, and not Mephisto – and we’d still have the same result. She did not have to die… and her doing so - heroic as it may have been, just gave us a… well, reason to consider how deadly the adventure was. But that’s about it.

  I followed Clint and Bobbi’s adventures in Hawkeye’s limited series – and was mildly surprised at the ending. I likewise followed their adventures in the West Coast mini – and later still, in WCA. What I’m saying is that I may have had enough investment in Bobbi as a character to know and feel something should she have died.

  Unlike Phoenix, Mar-vell and Warlock, the story had no crescendo and the death seemed flat… and unlike the death of Vindicator/Guardian in Alpha Flight (also needless), Bobbi’s death seemed not to leave that great a void (still debating with myself here though - as it may have affected the WC title, having lost some form of foundation the team may have enjoyed with both Clint and Bobbi). Maybe its because I never saw Clint or the Waccos really mourn her for a long time. Maybe…

  Therein lies the potential problem… Bobbi’s death did not 'seemingly' have any long term bearing on Clint, as Jean’s seemed to have with Scott, and I still question the need – and ramifications of such an event.

  I also ask, was it due to how it was executed? Had her death happened the same time (as in comic era) as the Swordsman’s I may have been better affected – but with her death having gone after all those great (and not so great) deaths, well… the significance of such an event just lost its interest and had to match - if not exceed its memorable predecessors – I know… Bobbi’s death, and seemingly lack of significance may be a victim of a more jaded readership in me, and maybe it was also affected by my not seeing Hawkeye in a regular manner - thus not having the chance to see his character explore the issue further beyond the back-up story, but that was my honest reaction upon reading issue 100.

  Whew....

• Greg Orzech, United States
  Sorry if I offend any Mockingbird fans, I know this may sound harsh, but I didn't have any problems with Bobbi taking one in the back while saving Clint and Wanda from an incomprehensible situation with Mephisto and Satannish. Unfortunately, when you are living as dangerously as the Avengers, cheating death at every crazy turn, it's really a wonder more Avengers like Mockingbird haven't been killed over the years. Mockingbird, after all, didn't have any super powers to give her any extra protection, and the situation with Mephisto was an extreme event and opponent for her to contend with, even if she was killed in the fallout. It was only a matter of time wasn't it? And this battle demanded a lot of the Avengers.

  But I do think the end of the series, a few issues after this one, really shattered the continuity for the impact Mockingbird's death woulda/coulda/shoulda had on Hawkeye, Wanda, and the team. And while Mockingbird's death could have been really profound, it instead lost much of its meaning when the series ended.

  Gwen Stacy, Phoenix, and Warlock were three of the penultimate Marvel death stories for me. Deaths like those of the Swordsman, Thunderbird, and Mockinbird, were all also tragic and meant something, but for their own reasons, each was not as intense and profound for me as they could have been. Vindicator's death struck me as inappropriate, even though it was apparent Byrne wanted to develop Heather, you were always wondering when he would return. But what they did to Hawkeye, and yes Vision and even Ant-Man II, that was just plain foul! (And I did not include Captain Marvel since he is a personal all-time favorite).

• Larry Turner, United States
  Mockingbird's death was heroic. The death of heroes have been vastly different in the marvel universe. Captain Marvel's death issue was poinent. It was a beautiful issue. I think its an interesting coincident that both Clint and Bobbi died by being shot in the back. She died saving the man she loved. How tragic and romantic. The fact that she was killed by Mephisto was a good turn as well. He is supposed to be the prince of hell, but how many major characters has he actually KILLED? Just one. Mockingbird.
  
  
• Brian Schott, United States
  I never had any problems with the way in which Mockingbird was killed. I never liked the fact that she was chosen to die but I never thought it was poorly done. To the contrary, I thought Bobbi’s last line was quite powerful and made an impact on me then and still does today, “No . . . Clint. I did . . . it . . . to s-save . . . you.” Again, even though I thought and still feel that this is crummy ending to a great series and a great Avenger, Roy Thomas really hit a homerun with the dialogue.

  I think the aftermath is where I start to have some issues with the death of Mockingbird.

  First off, look who shows up to her funeral (I am assuming it was her funeral), where are all the other Avengers? Do mean to tell me that only Captain America has the decency to show up and pay his respects? Where are the rest of the East coast Avengers and even more disturbing - where are the rest of the Wackos? Where is Stark? Where is Pym?

  The second problem I have is with the duration in which Thomas acknowledges her death – one whole page. I can hardly contain myself. We have 3 back up stories in this issue and 1 page dedicated to her passing. This seems a bit odd to me.

  So, how does her passing in the line of duty stack up? Well, considering how poorly Marvel does “death” I would have to say fairly well and probably better than most. Beyond Captain Marvel, I can’t really think of another on panel Avenger funeral . . . Ant-Man II, Gilgamesh, Thunderstrike, Swordsman, I think Moxie had it better than them all.

• Philip Tite, United Kingdom
  In the past, we've had several discussions regarding the futility of 'death' -- i.e., that the death of a character means nothing, they come back when the 'market' demands it, and thus it is no more profound than when a character is lost in limbo or is put into a comma. We've tended to harken back to a time when a character's death meant something - to the characters, to the series, and maybe even the Marvel universe. Wonder Man's resurrection in vol. 1, no. 150 was profound because it was a shock, and one well done.

  In other cases, a death is merely the disposal of a plot device (e.g., Barney Barton or the Shadow Lord). For the story the death is important, but does it have any long term impact? No.

  Where does Mockingbird fit into this typology of 'killed off characters'? I don't think she fits into either, in fact. For the latter type (the disposible plot device), her death was neither (1) that of a short-term character, nor (2) integral to the plot of the story. For the first point, take note that she has been with the Avengers since the founding of the WCA, a major character throughout that series, which at that time had run 100 issues. She had been developed beyond any single story, and had been central to one of Marvel’s major characters (Hawkeye). As to the second point, her death is random, almost an aside addition. The story runs the same regardless of who, if any, Avenger died.

  As for the former type (the ‘profound death’), I don’t think she fits that either. It is true that she has not been brought back, except as the ‘dead’, but her death is not profound for the following reasons: (1) her death, though heroic, was senseless (though not as senseless as Hawk’s death, which also lacked an heroic quality). There was no need for this beyond the ironic twist at the end of the story (i.e., the AWC go to rescue her and in escaping lose her – it’s a failed mission, and an horrific loss); (2) The series ended too soon, and the impact of the death could not be explicated further. If the series had endured, or if Force Works had built on this event (and had been more popular as a series; the death of Wonder Man certainly overshadowed any impact Mock’s death may have had), then Mockingbird’s death might have had a greater impact; (3) Despite my indications that Mockingbird was a central character, her impact was limited to the WCA/AWC – she was not a major Avenger, only West Coast Avenger. There’s a difference here between Mock and the several other characters on the team – if Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Wonder Man or Iron Man had died (permanently), then we would have a profound story. Mockingbird never served in the main title, except as a visitor, and thus (with all apologies to WCA/AWC lovers) was really a second string character. If her death had occurred in the main Avengers title, and at a time when the series was strong, then I think we would have had a greater impact. Compare this to the death of Swordsman or the aforementioned Wonder Man in vol. 1, no. 9 – for death to matter in a comic, it needs to have significance for the other characters, move the readers, and the writers need to give room for the death to have an impact. The AWC was too chaotic at the time to make Mockingbird’s death really count as a ‘profound death’, which is what it should have been.

The cosmology of the Marvel Universe (unlike the Distinguished Competition) has had almost no development in terms of the good guys, but has had a great deal of development about the bad guys. What are your feelings on this issue featuring two devil-like antagonists and the destruction of the souls of four actual historical people (Lizzie Borden, Heinrich Himmler, Josef Stalin,and Lucrezia Borgia)?

• George Young, United States
  While I appreciated the threat level of Mephisto and Satannish, I felt like Roy Thomas had really let his Dr. Strange title spill over a little too hard into Avengers West Coast. Nevertheless, I did enjoy watching this Avengers squad operate in this environment, especially as penned by David Ross! The Scarlet Witch was magnificent using her chaos magic (c'mon those werern't just mutant hexes she was throwing around there!) to guide the team and affect events. Only Hawkeye seemed a little too freaked-out in this issue to me. I did not like the fact that it was Hawkeye's actions that allowed Mephisto to use Hawk's body to transport himself into Satannish's realm. Despite these weaknesses, I thought this was a pretty good adventure and suspense story, a great Scarlet Witch story, and definitely worthy of a landmark issue.

  As for the destruction of the souls of actual historical people, it didn't bother me even though I did note it, because actual real-world villains, like Hitler, Mussolini, and other tyrants have always had their place in the Marvel Universe, e.g. the Hate Monger.

• Larry Turner, United States
  Talk about heavy hitters! I love the fact that the Avengers faced two archtype devils in this huge issue. I did, in fact enjoy the historical villans in the issue. I mean evil has a face in the real world and it was hit on the head in this title. I also liked the fact that Marvel place truly evil people that some people might not have a lot of info about. This pushes hungry young minds to learn about real evil in Earth's history. My favorite part of the issue in regards to the developement of the heroes was Hawkeye was the same Hawkeye no matter who the villian or level of the treat. You see Wanda dealing with supernatural threats like a pro. This issue was part of the reason I had a hard time with house of m because Wanda is so confident in the face of a cosmic level threat.
  
  
• Butch Syyap, Philippines
  I would have to agree that the historical figures gave a little douse of cold water connected reality to an otherwise out of this world adventure. It also gives readers - those who would care to know, a reason to look up these historical pesons and wonder what they did to deserve the fate they had with Satanish.

  As GM pointed out, this was not the first time historical figures were used in comics as villains - Hitler being revealed some years back as the Hate Monger made real sense, and whenever time travel stories happen, we always see some well known character either in the background, or as the plot device or even rubbing elbows with our heroes. I would even say that if it piques the curiosity of our readers, and they do google the names of these historic characters, then comic would have helped the education of the readers... at least, in connection to history.

  As for the two devil-like antagonists, well it is rare that you see these cahracters fighting it out with our heroes in between, and it did give me some exposure to Satanish - but not enough to know the demon better. Far as I'm concerned, Roy could have added a litle more backgrounder on what makes Satanish different from Mephisto, maybe even tackle why there are many and not just one demon doing whatever it takes to get souls. I mean, since were talking about a common feasting table, what makes one have dibs over one soul or the other? What makes Mephisto's stealing souls from Satanish a foul thing indeed? Is there honor among demons? I vaguely remember it being a subject in a Thor annual or something, but that was long long ago.

  Maybe I'm reading too deeply on this issue and I'd enjoy things better by just looking at it and accepting it as entertainment. Maybe I'm just a darn too critical, who knows... The fact is I've been spoiled by too many cosmic stories, wonderful tales and great plots, I expect a lot from many of the stories I read up on. As a new reader to the story, I don't see it with glossy eyes of 'good old days' consideration, and I realy would give any Avengers issue some leeway - but this is an anniversary issue, so I guess I expected better.

  Mind you, I'm not complaining about the plot - runing a gauntlet through two fighting demons, surviving hell to save Mockingbird, Scarlet Witch shining in this issue, her use of chaos magick, hexes and arcane tomes, the near success - but in the end the sacrifice of Mockingbird to save Hawkeye, thus making the entire adventure's goal moot... this makes for a grand anniversary story. But I don't know, maybe something was lacking in the execution. I can't put my finger on it... like I said, maybe I'm thinking too much... maybe I was just biased againt Bobbi dying.

  Oh well, I hope her eventual rescue and ressurection will happen soon... oh, and I wouldn't mind Roy doing it either. Maybe he just needs a different artist, maybe pacing could have been better.

• Brian Schott, United States
  I don’t really care for the mixing of religion or religious characters into comics – no matter how far removed they are from the actual or original biblical entities or concepts. The idea of heroes fighting demons just doesn’t sit that well with me and when you ratchet it up a notch and start calling those demons “Mephisto” I really start to loose interest. Let me be clear – I don’t think this issue suffers because the Avengers are fighting “demons” its just I would have elected to have them face someone else if it had been my choice.

  As for the souls for the souls of Lizzie Borden, Heinrich Himmler, Josef Stalin, and Lucrezia Borgia - I'm afraid this had very little impact on me.

  I like a touch of reality in my comics because I believe it is good to have these stories about our favorite heroes grounded - to a degree - in the real world. However, when writers start including real people (souls of real people) in comic stories I have trouble welcoming them into my fantasy world. I guess the same could be said about when President George Bush pops up in the pages of your more modern comics - I just don't care for it. Its like I almost have to stop and reconcile the fact that actual people are interacting with these fictitious characters. I hope that makes some sense.

• Philip Tite, United Kingdom
  I’m not sure that religion in comics is a problem for me. I like the idea of ‘heroism’ being brought out, within the superhero genre, in various ways. Joseph Campbell and others have demonstrated (despite methodological problems with a universalising view of mythic patterns) that the hero can emerge in mythic and religious contexts, with deeper conceptual themes than just ‘saving the day’ or even ‘defeating the monsters’. The very journey and maturation of the hero is what emerges.

  The idea of the ‘hero’ is culturally variable. For example, take the Iliad (or even the film Troy as a modern reworking of the Homeric poem) – the hero is one who fights, kills, and conquers bravely and profoundly, not necessarily for the benefit of humankind or for high ideals. As the film version nicely presents it, the hero’s motivation can be for high ideals (Hector), greed (Agamemnon), pragmatics (Odysseus), love (Paris), or more often just for a lasting reputation (Achilles). These instances are very different from what we might consider ‘heroic’, as per the Avengers or JLA. The Iliad is even better than the movie at representing both sides of the ‘heroes’ (Achaeans and Trojans) as a weird mixture of good and evil (the film makes this somewhat sharper, likely due to a modern audience’s expectations). I’m sure that the Norse, Welsh, and Irish mythologies and folklore would illustrate other ideas of the heroic.

  So back to AWC 100… Although I don’t mind the usage of religious and mythical beings for an Avengers comic story (after all, I like Thor and think the whole Asgardian motif in the MU fascinating), I really wasn’t impressed with the usage of these two ‘demons’ in issue 100. I believe my dislike was that they are not left as mythical, conceptual, and somewhat supra-material/natural. Rather, they are simply reduced to two big bad monsters that battle it out. There are some good motifs, however, but these are not developed within a somewhat surreal narrative and artistic presentation. The theme of temptation and the tainting of love is powerful, and adds a valuable side to the narrative characterization between Hawkeye and Mockingbird. But this is lost as a thematic key for the story, reducing it to simply a cool way to sneak Mephisto into the realm of Satannish. It would have been better, I think to link this to a choice on Hawkeye’s part to violate his high ideals of what it means to be an Avenger for the sake of love – with the result of his compromise resulting in the death of the person he loves more than anything. This would allow a tragedy to emerge, a concept of the heroic to be explored and tested, and a religious theme to be effectively utilized for framing a narrative journey of our hero. Indeed, we could have had both Hawkeye and Mockingbird struggling with different concepts of ‘the hero’, wherein they both need to decide on how to respond to the temptation to violate that ideal: Hawkeye fails, and grieves; Mockingbird succeeds, and perishes. The resolution is left to the readers (and characters) to resolve.

  The demonic or mystical setting should have facilitated this narrative thrust. Instead, we end up with two big bad monsters fighting it out and our heroes simply trying to avoid being collateral damage. The battle is cool. But it lacks in narrative and thematic impact.

  As for the historical figures, they were ok, but I’m always wary about Marvel using real people as characters. The first reason is that there is the continuity issue: when a character is used once (and in this case destroyed), that messes things up if another writer decides to use the same characters or sets something in an historical context. The other reason, for this particular story, is that the characters are simplified and reduced to bland instances of ‘evil’ (their transformation into super beings adds to that feel for me). Like with the demons, these historic figures could have served a far greater purpose for the sake of the story than just being ‘cool’. Here we have specific instances of ‘evil’ from diverse historic contexts. Why not use that for the sake of exploring different concepts of evil; i.e., make ‘evil’, as a concept, more complex and diverse a phenomenon (indeed phenomena!) through the different characters? Narrative characterization can serve as typological venues for exemplifying both virtue and vice. With AWC 100, I felt that we missed out on a golden opportunity to really explore some fascinating ideas through such characterization.

  Don’t get me wrong. I liked the characters and the demons and the context and the overall story. Fun to read. Great Hawkeye moments. Great Mockingbird moment at here death. I was moved and entertained at the same time. That’s great. I just think it could have been better.

The popular styles of comic art seem to come and go. What parts of the Ross/Dzon/Sharen team's style do you think modern comics could use a bit more influence from? What part are you glad has faded away?

• Greg Orzech, United States
  Great question. First and foremost, I think that David Ross' layouts are really exciting. I can really feel all the movement on page 2, for example, leading into the big payoff panel of Mephisto intercepting the Avengers on the way to Satannish's realm on page 3. And I was just rivetted from the time Mephisto turned to Satannish and said, "But first..." and swept up the Avengers and hung them on the Pillar of Despair. The splash on page 22 of Mephisto's domination of the Avengers was powerful, and the whole sequence of Mockingbird's death on pages 30-33 was fantastic. I really like the angles and the overall feeling in David Ross' work here.

  While I thought Dzon's inking worked great with Ross' pencils most of the time, as on the surreal cinematic page 4 and through Mockingbird's similarly, cinematic death sequence on pages 30-33, as well as when the Man of Steel attacks War Machine on page 13, I thought there were a few pages that weren't as sharp as this stuff. Sharen's colors were spot-on, and the use of purple through Mockingbird's death sequence was just beautiful. Overall, I'd love to see more influence from the kinds of angles and overall feeling Ross and co. utilize here.

  Even though many of these special covers from this period were $thrust$ upon the reader, I think this is a great cover, particularly for a 100th issue, so I wouldn't want to see these covers from this period totally fade away, but I'm glad they aren't commonplace. Ross also didn't utilize a lot of background detail. While the use of free space can often be exciting, sometimes it is useful to provide the viewer with more reference points, and I'm glad many of today's artists have a lot more working in their backgrounds.

• Butch Syyap, Philippines
  Despite my feelings of how the issue seemed to have gone, I too agree that Ross and Dzon's action breakdowns were pretty dynamic - specially in the first part of the story, leading to the battle between Satanish and Mephisto.

  I could follow what was happening and enjoyed the progress - however, somewehre in the 30th page, things seemed to have somewhat deteriorated in terms of pacing - as things were seemingly happening in a more abrupt manner. Maybe there would have been something better said if the extra pages were still dedicated to ironing out the story.

  That said, I felt that there were a few need to improve on considerations - specifically on faces as there were times that Hawkeye and USAgent's faces seemed not too detailed. More so in the pannel where USAgent was fighting with a torn mask on. I understand the situation, but the art seemed, for lack of a better word distracting in its lack of clarity.

  Sharen's colors seemd alright as nothing was too distracting with his work.

  As for what comics these days can use more of... well, the dynamism is present in most of today's comics, so I guess overall - less splash pages to make room for more stories. Despite its seeming fast pace, we still got a lot to read from this issue. But this can be a double edged sword too - because it might be possible that things might be too verbose and the end result would be a drag.

  Pacing is needed - and I would say that this anniversary issue was doig fine until the end - and its not because of Bobbi's death. I knew there was something lacking and upon rereading the issue to get at what was nagging me, I realized that Bobbi's death seemed rushed.

  Here's what I mean:
  - Why did Satanish suddenly just give up? Is Mephisto more a demon than him? Why didn't he make the Avengers suffer through the end - after all, they did invade his realm and drag Mephisto in with them.
  - How the book just get back to Wanda? I thought it was gone - we did not see a panel with ehr searching for it.
  - Wanda acknowledges the deadliness of the beams coming from Mephisto, why no precautionary measures? shields?

  Like I said, suddenly rushed. The thing is, pacing is still a tricky process - even with today's scripts, so I can't say I'm glad the inconsistency of pacing (in this case, a seemingly speedy ending) has dissapeared.

  The cover does not lend itself well to a scanned image - so I won't comment on it. But if its anything like those aniversary foil covers of Avengers, then it might definitely be better appreciated in print than in RGB.

• Brian Schott, United States
  Just being honest – I am really struggling in terms of how to answer this two part question.

  Today’s, or modern comic book artwork if you will, is pretty darn slick – the medium has come a long way since the early 1990s when Avengers West Coast #100 was first published.

  With that said I can only think of two ways in which modern comics could benefit from taking a page out of the Dave Ross playbook.

  First, I would have to say that the level of action being depicted in this issue is pretty high. The characters are fluid, their poses are dynamic. Today’s comics, at times, seem to lack this type of action. Many times the characters are shown in rigid poses or merely talking. Let me be clear – not all modern comics suffer from this lack of action - but many unfortunately do.

  I also think Ross does a nice job when rendering the human form. His heroes are “heroic” in stature but not overly done. His females are sleek and do not suffer from enormous mammary glands. He also does a very nice and consistent job when comes to drawing War Machine whereas today artists seems to have a very difficult time drawing a character like Iron Man the same panel to panel.

  As for what part or parts of this style artwork am I glad to have seen fade away? Again, not really sure I know how to answer. If we were talking about the artwork from Don Hudson, Tom Tenny or Tom Morgan in the comic’s back up stories that would be something different altogether as I think this is solid effort on the part of Dave Ross.

  I will say that the backgrounds in this issue are poorly done – and leave the reader to fend for his or herself when it comes to placing the heroes in the scene.

• Larry Turner, United States
  I was just "okay" with the art in this issue. The body definitions were sharp and the action was fluid but for me it was just a bit too "stylized". I know all artists have their own defenitive thing but I like art that really focuses on the character of an individual's face more than trying to push emotional facial expressions in the art. The story alone provoked emotion so the art didn't have a very tough job to do and it was accomplished adequately.
  
  I think modern artists could learn a little from the many angles and fluid transitions of this art.
  
  
• Philip Tite, United Kingdom
  The art? Mmmmm... I'm not much of an art critic, but I must say that I'm not a big fan of the type of art that was coming out at this time period.

  What I dislike and would not want to see again? A lot of this is simply what seems like an overuse of techniques that makes the pages feel crowded or difficult to focus on. I'd have to say:

  (1) The usage of frames made it difficult to read and follow the flow of the story at times. Panels tended to overlap a lot in their layout. This is a bit distracting on especially page 11. The actual question 'which is next' is not a problem, but my eye would struggle with what seemed a bit crowded.

  (2) The flowing out of frames is a constant artistic technique used here. On page 10, War Machine flies out of his panel, which adds a nice touch to the flow, but this technique is used excessively (e.g., both Wanda's hands and Mephisto on page 4 are bouncing out of the frames; on pages 28 to 29 we have three instances of word bubbles falling of the panel, yet only with the first, at the top of page 28, does this actually add anything to the transition from one view/panel to another). Again this is not an criticism of a technique, but an excessive use of a technique.

  (3) I found the colouring a bit bright and awkward. With the panel layouts, the colours made it difficult to focus or be drawn into the story.

  The one thing I really did like about the art is the way faces are made. There is a very distinctive and emotionally charged drawing of different characters. We don't have a stock 'male' look that both Hawkeye and US Agent share, nor a stock 'female' look that can only be distinguished by the way Wanda and Spider Woman are dressed or their hair colour. I think this enables deeper feelings to emerge for the characters -- e.g., 4 with Hawkeye's three panelled close up, or the last panel on page 31 where Hawkey and Mocking bird are expressing shock and pain with Mephisto's blast (note especially their eyes; we have two very different expressions that indicate different experiences during the same moment). Not also the three very different expressions from Spider Woman, Wanda, and US Agent on page 30, panel 6 of 7 as they are escaping Mephisto's realm.

  I also appreciated the non-overuse of the splash page. Both during this period in the 1990s and in recent decompressionist comic art, there is a tendency to overuse splash pages to the point where the 'wow' effect is negated. Here, however, the splash on page 22 is more profound for being unique.

  The art does shift with the back stories. The more playful art by Don Hudson in '...And Make Death Proud to Take Us' nicely fits the playful nature of this story. Clint and Bobbi in bed on page 35 is funny, because of this style. This nicely contrast with the more sombre story the precedes it. Tom Tenny's art, however, is not very good in my opinion (in 'Boys Will Be Boys'). It's sketchy, bulky, and overdone. Page 45 is an immediate turn off from this story. However, I do appreciate Tenny's utilization of action/motion devices, such as the first panel on page 50. The 'Wild in the Streets' story with War Machine has some interesting art. In particular, I like the more metalic rendering of the arm at times (especially the opening panel on page 52 and the third panel on page 57). The distorted physical presentation on page 56, panel one, however, is not something I liked - though I noticed it was a common enough stylistic motif at the time.

  Anyway, those are my thoughts on the art.

Five more pages of the book were taken up by the three back-up stories than were used for the main story. Pick one of the three back-up stories and argue that it deserved the pages it received.

• Butch Syyap, Philippines
  My first pick would have been the Hawkeye Mockingbird story – it told us how the west coast compound was bought and it showed, in a bittersweet fashion, the relationship of Clint and Bobbi in their honeymoon stage.

  But I would have to (surprisingly) give my vote to the U.S. Agent story since it spoke volumes of his thoughts, his realization to trust the team and his reluctance to it; his feelings of inadequacy with Cap and how he perceives himself when compared to Cap – plus how he realized that being a hero in small things were sometimes more significant than actions that save the universe.

  It also showed us his finally accepting of his parent’s death and learning to let go and mature - thus laying to rest the disturbing moment way back in the first issues of his joining the team and his talking to his (dead)parents when all alone in his room – the one that Byrne showed us.

  If I had to fight to keep any story in the annual, I’d have picked this, for it showed a significant moment in this hero’s life and surprisingly, there was a great number of character-driven moments in such a short story.

  This was where John Walker finally learned to appreciate being a hero, and not jsut be a second-rate Captain America.

• Greg Orzech, United States
  If I could only pick one of the backup stories, I would definitely have to choose the first backup story with Clint and Bobbi. I think it was an important story that really added depth to Hawkeye and Mockingbird's relationship and to the featured story as well. In its own funny kind of way, with Hawkeye and Mockingbird anointing Moira Brandon an honorary Avenger, it really helped give some form of closure to Mockingbird's death, much to Roy's credit here. It was also just a neat little Hawkeye story that you might typically see from this time period, which is one of the things West Coast Avengers was all about. The US Agent and War Machine stories were good, but this would be the one. Though I think the featured story could also have benefitted from a few more pages.
  
  
• Larry Turner, United States
  I agree with Greg, the first backup story was the one that was justified. I loved the old Hawkeye mini and I loved seeing Hawkeye and his bride in action. It seemed once they got back into the Avengers, her relivance seemed to diminish. As a bonus we get top see the shortest Avenger career in history, Moria Brandon...I jest. But on a serious note, I would have loved to have seen more Hawkeye, Mockingbird action.